Demonstrating Leadership in All Aspects of Daily Life

Additional resources

• Leadership in the Workplace: Advice for Employees and Managers
• How To Be A Leader In The Workplace
• Strategies for Culture Change Management that Works
• What Is Culture Add And How To Hire For It

Tips for how to become a great leader

1. There’s no better investment than time in people. Create great teams of people. Relationships transcend transactions. You are greater than the percentage of turnover you have or don’t have. 
2. Lead people in life, beyond the realm of staying in the company. True leadership is supporting individuals moving on to their future endeavors rather than holding them back. Allow them a platform to express their problems and leave them confident knowing they have your support. 
3. Get to know the people you are leading. Who are they? What are their dreams? It is so important to make sure you take the time to really know who you’re spending all day with. 
4. Hire the candidate who cares. Spend time getting to know who they are and what their thought process is behind things. Get into a conversation during the interview with a candidate, rather than sticking with questions. More times than not, the candidate will relax and give you more insight and more information about themselves.

Transcript

Pete Newsome  00:10
Thank you for listening to The Hire Calling Podcast. I’m your host Pete Newsome. And this is your source for all things hiring, staffing, and recruiting.

Pete Newsome  00:17
I’m excited to be joined today by two people who I’ve worked with for a long time and am very honored to have on the show today, Rich Simmons and Tony Alvarez.

Pete Newsome  00:26
Both are IT, executives, with Holiday Inn Club Vacations. Rich is the Vice President of Technology Innovations. And Tony is vice president of next generational development. So Rich, and Tony, welcome. How are you guys today?

Rich Simmons  00:39
Fantastic. Pete, how are you?

Tony Alvarez  00:40
Really good.

Pete Newsome  00:41
Good, now I have very long bios on both of you guys that I feel somewhat silly trying to read from because I know you personally so well.

Pete Newsome  00:50
So rather than do that, if you wouldn’t mind just briefly introducing yourselves a little bit further. So everyone knows who you are?

Rich Simmons  00:56
Sure, Pete, it’s easy to have a long bio, whenever you’re the old guy in the room, right? So I’ve been around the business for quite some time.

Rich Simmons  01:03
But my name is Rich Simmons I am the Vice President of Technology Innovations for Holiday Inn Club Vacations.

Rich Simmons  01:08
And in that role, basically what it means is I pretty much run anything inside of it from any sort of technical innovations that we do through operational efficiencies and business transformation.

Pete Newsome  01:19
Wonderful, thank you.

Tony Alvarez  01:22
Yeah, and what I do with Next Generation Development is really go out there and look for that cutting or bleeding edge technology and see how it can apply to our business.

Tony Alvarez  01:31
And one of the things that, you know, Rich, being a mentor of mine has encouraged me to do is look outside of the industry.

Tony Alvarez  01:38
Look beyond the industry that I’m in and look elsewhere, to see how we can bring those kinds of technologies in and, you know, advance our business and our business processes.

Pete Newsome  01:48
Awesome, well great.

Pete Newsome  01:49
Let’s just get right into the real reason I wanted you guys on today, which is perhaps a bit of a surprise, but maybe not, since this is something in nearly every conversation we’ve had going back Rich, I think we’ve known each other for 17 years now something along those lines.

Pete Newsome  02:08
And as we’ve gotten to know each other better, it’s so clear that you take leadership, culture, and team building seriously in a way that no one else I know does.

Pete Newsome  02:22
And I say that I probably should run through a list of everyone I know to make sure that claim is accurate. But certainly at a level that’s rare.

Pete Newsome  02:31
It’s something that gets a lot of lip service, but you’re one of those few people who live and breathe it every day.

Pete Newsome  02:37
And as I’ve gotten to know, Tony, over the years, you have shared that mentality with Tony, maybe he brought it to the party himself, and you fed off each other. But it’s a really rare thing that I think others could benefit by learning more about.

Pete Newsome  02:51
So I want to talk about that today is that fair game?

Rich Simmons  02:55
Absolutely.

Tony Alvarez  02:56
Totally fair game.

Pete Newsome  02:57
So maybe start with something that I know of, but quite frankly, very little about. And that’s RLF, which is a regional leadership forum, I believe, that you both have invested a lot of time and effort into.

Pete Newsome  03:13
And from my impression, it has been one of if not the most impactful things that you’ve done in your professional life. So if you guys wouldn’t mind, just explain what RLF is, and why it’s made such a difference in your lives.

Rich Simmons  03:27
I’ll pick that one first, Tony. But RLF or regional leadership forum is actually a program put on by the Society of Information Management, which is a nationwide group of senior IT professionals.

Rich Simmons  03:40
The funny thing about it is, is that it really has very little to do with IT in general, other than their participants being mostly from IT.

Rich Simmons  03:49
But at the foundation, RLF is really about kind of breaking down who you are, why you are who you are, and then really helping you define the value behind that person that you ultimately want to become. And I think you know, it’s a very intense program.

Rich Simmons  04:05
It’s labeled as a leadership course. But the reality is, I would consider it to be more of a personal course because it really does focus so much on who you are as a human and then the value behind that.

Rich Simmons  04:16
It’s about a seven month program in which you meet two days a month, over the seven month period. And in that seven months, you have guest speakers that’ll come in all have typically very senior stature from different industries.

Rich Simmons  04:30
You’ll have anybody from you know, I think one of the very first speakers I’ve met was the very first CIO of the FBI. His name’s Darwin John, fantastic, gentlemen.

Rich Simmons  04:40
So the quality that you get in the experience, you get that feedback from the people that come and speak to you, it’s fantastic.

Rich Simmons  04:45
But outside of that, you’re doing so many things from a personal standpoint, you will read about 30 books throughout those seven months. And in that seven months of those books, readings, you’re also doing book reports and things of that nature.

Rich Simmons  04:59
And I think the very interesting thing about it is for me personally, is that you’re in a room with about 20 people who all have about the same seniority and mindset as you.

Rich Simmons  05:08
But as they’re doing their book reports, you’re listening to this and you just read this book and you’re listening to them speak about and you’re going like, wait a second.

Rich Simmons  05:16
But I don’t think we’re talking about the same book. And then they’ll say something here, like, wait, no, that part sounds familiar.

Rich Simmons  05:22
And what it really starts to make you do is to look at yourself and say, I did not get what they got out of that book. Why not? This is somebody of about the same background as me the same maturity level as me, yet the how they interpreted the same words that read were greatly different.

Rich Simmons  05:37
So it really starts to make you wonder, what is it that you’re missing? Why did you not see things the same way? It starts to challenge your own beliefs. Beyond that, you do a lot of personalized exercises and things of that nature.

Rich Simmons  05:49
And it goes over family history and just career upbringing and key moments in your life. And myself, I’ve had several key moments in my life, and you’ve heard my conversation more than once.

Rich Simmons  05:59
So, it really helps you define who you are as a person.

Pete Newsome  06:05
That’s great feedback. And you know, I want to dive into a couple of those things in just a minute. But Tony, what would you add to complement that?

Tony Alvarez  06:14
Well, it’s one of those things where you really try to put your finger on what it does and how it gets you.

Tony Alvarez  06:22
And there’s no real way to explain that RLF experience. But the cool thing about it is that something we’ve almost coined as RLF graduates is somewhere along the way you get that moment, where it just hits you, it just hits you like a ton of bricks and it can be quite emotional.

Tony Alvarez  06:42
And I think what it truly does is it allows you to get in touch with your, you know, I don’t want to use taglines or key phrases. But in a context like this, you can’t help but to, but you have that moment where you figure out who your true authentic self is.

Tony Alvarez  07:00
And once you dig down deep like that, and figure that out, the rest is gravy, you just, your life, your life at work, the way you lead others, it just becomes second nature.

Tony Alvarez  07:14
Now, I will admit some of the things you learn along the way, it’s like a muscle, you need to work it out a little bit. But once you get going and you get cooking, and you get in touch with who you are authentic, everything else becomes easy at that point.

Tony Alvarez  07:28
And for me, that’s what the experience was about. Because I entered that experience, Rich will tell you, a very insecure leader, a very insecure person, I just didn’t even feel like I belonged there.

Tony Alvarez  07:40
And, you know, if you saw me walking in there, Pete I was like peeking around the corner and kind of inching my way in and inching my way out.

Pete Newsome  07:47
That’s not the Tony I know, for the record. 

Tony Alvarez  07:50
Oh, I promise you where I was, it was very, very an overwhelming experience and in all the positive ways that it can be.

Tony Alvarez  07:57
So while Rich outlined some of the structure of it, you know, reading books and, and doing some reports on these books to really polish your public speaking and your ability to, hone in on what your opinions are and how to get that word out into a public forum.

Tony Alvarez  08:13
It’s really more of the emotional journey for me that you go on which, just makes a difference in figuring out who you are as a person. And once you’ve really established that leading just becomes second nature.

Rich Simmons  08:28
Yeah, and I’ll say too, I think maybe even piggyback a little further on what Tony said, you got to remember that there are 20 Something people in these courses that are all going through that same emotional journey at the same time.

Rich Simmons  08:40
So the bonds that you’ve formed there, it really is like a fraternity or brotherhood that you know, you don’t get many other places.

Rich Simmons  08:48
And in many cases, these people will know you better than your friends and family and neighbors will know you. And it’s a very interesting perspective.

Pete Newsome  08:57
It’s a lot of time to commit, you know, two days a month for seven months, you can say it, it doesn’t sound like a lot, but I get anxiety just hearing that the thought of making that kind of commitment, and then having to stick with it.

Pete Newsome  09:10
So you probably are spending more concentrated focus time with those people than you do, anyone else. I mean, even the people you’re closest to in your life, you don’t spend that kind of dedicated time with them.

Tony Alvarez  09:24
Beyond the actual sessions, it’s a little bit beyond that. Because in the between time, you know, you’re working on those features, you’re working on those assignments, and you’re working in a cooperative way with the other people that are attending with you, you know.

Tony Alvarez  09:38
So you build those connections and you build those ties and to this day, you know, the people that I graduated with are still in contact with me, I’m in contact with them like Rich said, it’s like a fraternity and we keep tight.

Tony Alvarez  09:54
It’s great contacts to have if anything.

Pete Newsome  09:56
That’s neat!

Rich Simmons  09:57
I’ll tell you, you know, you’re not wrong and it is a company admit, right? But the reality is, is there a better person to be committed to than yourself when it comes to your own growth and your own value?

Tony Alvarez  10:07
Right.

Pete Newsome  10:07
You probably learned that there, didn’t you? Because I don’t I have a come back to that.

Tony Alvarez  10:14
Well, there’s a reason that when you’re on the airplane, right, it always tells you to put your own mask on before you help anyone else. Right?

Tony Alvarez  10:19
If they’re not the best that you can be, you’re never gonna be the best for anybody else.

Pete Newsome  10:22
Oh, man, that’s a great line. And, you know, it’s easier said than done right to focus on yourself, because it takes a commitment and a dedication that most of us don’t think we have time to give.

Pete Newsome  10:43
And, you know, that seems a little backward as I say it out loud. Because for a little bit of sacrifice of time, now, you’re probably going to be better in the future. And that’s the ultimate goal. Right?

Pete Newsome  10:56
Ultimately, yes. So about the aha moments, can you share what led to those for you individually? Or is that too personal?

Rich Simmons  11:05
We probably could.

Tony Alvarez  11:07
It is very personal, you know, and it takes you on a journey, that, um, you know, you discover things about your past, and how they’ve affected you, your family and all those things.

Tony Alvarez  11:20
And, you know, I think it all it hits you in certain times and, and certain points where you don’t expect it and for me, was reliving the journey of my background to get to where I am, and certainly to where I am today.

Tony Alvarez  11:36
Without even going past my RLF graduation there, there are a ton of crucibles that I’ve gone with things that have evolved even who I am after I graduated, but for me, it’s figuring out that it doesn’t matter what your journey is, and what your history is, and what your past is, you’re just as worthy and you belong just as much.

Tony Alvarez  11:57
And that hit me pretty hard. And it hit me with a great deal of emotion. Because, you know, I’m walking in there, I didn’t think I belong there. And I didn’t think I belonged with everybody that was in that forum.

Tony Alvarez  12:08
But when it hit me the amount of caring that the people around me had, and the amount of worth that I was and what I was able to contribute, and how far I’ve come Pete.

Tony Alvarez  12:20
I mean, you’re talking to a person that didn’t even graduate from high school, that didn’t even graduate from college, that at that point didn’t have a degree to his name and anything. And I have been able to work hard and evolve into who I am today.

Tony Alvarez  12:37
And you know, here’s the thing, you don’t do it by yourself. I mean, I’ve had mentors, like Rich, and then a ton of people along the way that’s given me a leg up, and that have opened the doors for me and helped me out.

Tony Alvarez  12:48
And when you realize all those things, all of a sudden, that becomes your aha moment, and you’re like, wait for a second, I do belong here, you know, I am worthwhile. And then the emotions just start rushing.

Pete Newsome  13:00
It sounds very deep. And that’s a little scary too for me because I don’t know that I want to have to be that introspective, I think vulnerable, right? I mean, that’s its own powerful thing, right?

Pete Newsome  13:18
We could talk for hours, if not days about vulnerability. It’s something that I think about a lot. It’s something that I think some people are naturally inclined to be of which I’m one and others.

Pete Newsome  13:30
And I think that’s a thing that I’m very thankful for naturally because I think it’s made me an effective salesperson, over the years, but I don’t necessarily want to dig into where it came from.

Pete Newsome  13:43
Not sure how to do that. But if I think of Rich, pre-RLF, and post-Rich did not lack confidence prior to that, if anything, the Rich I knew on the other side, or I know on the other side is a kinder, gentler version of the guy going in.

Pete Newsome  14:02
So is it fair to say you have to depend on who you are and what you’re about going in, you’re going to have a different experience coming out?

Rich Simmons  14:10
Yeah, I think you know, when you really start looking at self-awareness, Pete, what you got to understand is the thing that gets in most people’s way of them ever reaching there, you know, their hopes and goals and dreams is paradoxically themselves, right?

Rich Simmons  14:22
And a lot of times you don’t understand how you’re doing it because you lack that self-awareness. And so I think, for me personally, it wasn’t that I didn’t have the confidence.

Rich Simmons  14:31
I was very successful in my own business and things of that nature. But the motivation behind what was driving me was actually founded on a lot of childhood traumas.

Rich Simmons  14:41
And what I came out of that program with was an understanding as simply as doesn’t matter what got me here, who do I want to be going forward? And Tony mentioned being your authentic self, right?

Rich Simmons  14:53
It’s not that I wasn’t in some aspects, my authentic self. I’m not sure I actually knew who I was or who I actually wanted to be until I finalized that program. I was doing by all, by all indications was very successful.

Rich Simmons  15:09
Had a very successful company, a big house, fancy cars, nice clothes, all of those things.

Rich Simmons  15:14
But I was I still felt in many ways that I was an impostor. And it wasn’t until after I came out of that, that I was very comfortable with who I was, and who I wanted to be.

Rich Simmons  15:25
So, to your point, that probably made me a much calmer, more thoughtful leader, because I was just simply okay, being who I was.

Pete Newsome  15:34
It’s an expensive program, it’s a big time commitment that most aren’t able to give or your company, if you have an employer has to be very committed to you in order to allow that to happen, let alone subsidize it or pay for it entirely.

Pete Newsome  15:49
So I assume you’re surrounded by a lot of people who’ve already reached a pretty high level of achievement and professional success. It’s interesting to hear you guys share that confidence, it was something that you lacked.

Tony Alvarez  16:03
Pete, I think when you’re there, it’s a mixed bag, and, you know, a variety of reasons for people to be there, and what they want to get out of it. But it really just goes down into the core.

Pete Newsome  16:03
Do think that was true for most who were there? Because it’s an interesting thing because we assume that those who are successful and have reason to be confident are, right? But perhaps not.

Tony Alvarez  16:29
And it really goes down to one fundamental truth. And that’s who are you? Who are you really, who are you on the inside? And how can you hone in on that, and use it for your future for future leadership, you know, for your personal life?

Tony Alvarez  16:46
Because all of this is quite personal. It’s incredibly personal.

Tony Alvarez  16:51
And for me, you know, in my upbringing, I was in the entertainment industry very early on in my life as a young person. And so you have to have a whole level a whole different level of confidence to get on stage and do some of the things you do in music.

Tony Alvarez  17:04
And it’s funny how you can be extremely confident in some things in your life and just completely lack confidence in other things.

Tony Alvarez  17:12
And as I ventured through the corporate world, you know, very much like Rich, I kind of had that impostor syndrome, where like, do I really need to be here? Do I belong here?

Tony Alvarez  17:21
And, but I think it all comes down no matter who’s there for what it comes down to one fundamental truth. And it’s a very personal thing.

Tony Alvarez  17:29
And it’s who exactly are you? And what do you have to contribute to the world and other people? Why should anyone listen to you? Why should anyone follow you? And that’s where it lands.

Pete Newsome  17:40
Very interesting.

Pete Newsome  17:41
So I’m going to ask both of you now to put you on the spot to ask if you’d come on individually, with my other podcast.

Pete Newsome  17:50
Which is really to focus on career enlightenment, how that is achieved, where you start, where you go, because everything, a lot of what you guys are saying right now, I think would apply it and I know about Rich’s history, and I think there’s a lot to share there.

Pete Newsome  18:08
And Tony, now that you mentioned being on stage, there’s something that I really want to dig into there. So will you guys commit to doing that, then?

Rich Simmons  18:18
I will absolutely. But I’ll tell you right now, Tony keeps talking about this, he’s probably going to have more record sales than what he was actually on stage for real.

Pete Newsome  18:25
Well, now that I know that I’m even more intrigued if there’s singing involved.

Tony Alvarez  18:30
No, I would definitely love to.

Pete Newsome  18:33
But I do want to ask one more question. And then and then move on a little bit is that Tony, when you mentioned not going to not go into college is something that I think about and talk about a lot these days, as I’m creating career advice and content.

Pete Newsome  18:48
And I’m someone who believes that in many respects, college is unnecessary. It’s overrated. I think our education system is inherently flawed. I won’t get up on that soapbox.

Pete Newsome  18:59
But is that chip now gone that you seem to potentially have carried about that?

Tony Alvarez  19:06
I actually wear it as a badge of honor. You know, and look, this is not too slight going to college, I think education is important. And, you know, it’s not that I haven’t done my schooling now late in life.

Tony Alvarez  19:19
And, you know, I seek knowledge, and I love learning and learning about new things. But I wear this as a badge of honor. You know, it was a grind and a struggle. And no story is really good and no success is really worth it unless there’s a grind or a struggle that comes with it.

Tony Alvarez  19:35
And there certainly was in my life. And I received an education in a variety of different ways from a variety of different people. You just need to be in tune with all of that, you know, it may not be the conventional path, and I don’t disrespect any path that anybody takes to get to their success.

Tony Alvarez  19:52
But for me, this was just how life rolled out for me how it unfurled, that’s how it happened and as far as insecurity about it, I’m actually extremely proud of it. It’s fantastic for me. And it’s, it’s given me a platform to speak on.

Tony Alvarez  20:08
It’s what I speak on the most when I go up, and I speak in front of people, and, you know, I want to inspire that, you know, no path is the same.

Tony Alvarez  20:17
And any path you take, you know, it’s gonna take hard work and commitment. And as long as you have that, and you are your true, authentic self, you’ll get to where you want to be.

Pete Newsome  20:26
I love that. I love it.

Rich Simmons  20:28
Honestly, it’s why paying it forward is so important. Because Tony and I first met, I think Tony saw me as you know, some, you know, corporate guy.

Rich Simmons  20:40
It really wasn’t until he and I were sitting down one day, and I was brave enough to say, well, you know, Tony, I’m a high school dropout, didn’t go to college, myself did all these things.

Rich Simmons  20:50
And it’s funny how my background and Tony’s background parallel each other early in life, and yet, here we are, in very senior-level positions for large organizations.

Rich Simmons  21:01
And to Tony’s point, once you’re comfortable with being just your authentic self, you realize that this is still the land of opportunity.

Rich Simmons  21:09
And as long as you’re willing to do the work, you can educate yourself in many, many ways. And like you, I don’t want to I don’t want to go on the education, soapbox. I’m not a huge fan of the way our education system is structured.

Rich Simmons  21:21
But also to Tony’s point, he and I have both gone back now for senior-level, graduate-level degrees, over and above anything that we did, but we did it now because it’s something we wanted to do not something we felt like we had to take a path to get to somewhere.

Pete Newsome  21:36
And that’s, what’s so lost, usually when kids are coming out of high school at 17 or 18 years old.

Pete Newsome  21:44
Making life-altering decisions about that involve a lot of money, and you know, a lot of debt potentially, when they’re not necessarily qualified to know what they want to do what they want to invest their time and effort and throw themselves into.

Pete Newsome  22:02
Because that’s, I think, what you guys would agree from our previous conversations, you have to believe in what you’re doing, and you have to wake up excited to do it, in order to be the best version of yourself at it.

Pete Newsome  22:15
And that you know, you have to discover what that thing is that makes you excited that makes you want to give your all and that’s really hard to do at a young age, I think.

Rich Simmons  22:30
It really is. And honestly, when you think back, you know, it is to your point, it’s you’re asking a 17 or 18-year-old person to make, you know, what do you want to be 20 years, 30 years later in life.

Rich Simmons  22:42
And, you know, the reality is when I was 17, 18, 19 years old, I actually believed that knew everything about the world, right? I was dumb enough to think I knew everything. Now I’m smart enough to realize how dumb I really was. And so I think, you know, we kind of live those things back a little bit at times.

Pete Newsome  22:59
You know, I shared with you guys right before we started recording that I discovered the world of content marketing, inbound marketing, and digital marketing, just a few years ago, and for the first 13 years of Four Corner Resources.

Pete Newsome  23:15
I used to describe our website as embarrassing, something that you know, nobody should look at what I would say things like it’s a staffing business. How many words can you use to describe it? Right? So our website was five pages.

Pete Newsome  23:31
Our website now is around 3000 pages. Because I learned, I evolved, I grew, I changed, I discovered something that I didn’t even know existed and I look back and feel somewhat embarrassed.

Pete Newsome  23:47
Well, not too embarrassing. So I’m saying this openly. But it does make me cringe a little bit. On the other hand, I’m thankful for the opportunity to grow and evolve and I pity or not pity, but I feel sorry for people who think that they’ve arrived and know what there is to know because I’m excited about all the things I haven’t yet learned.

Tony Alvarez  24:07
The second, you think you’ve arrived is that you’re gonna I mean, nobody reads? What’s the arrival? Like, where did you arrive to there’s no real arrival, it is a constant and continuous journey.

Tony Alvarez  24:19
It’s a ride, it’s, a never-ending process of learning and evolving as a human being. Look, it’s like I told you, I graduated from RLF. And I was just a fundamentally changed person.

Tony Alvarez  24:31
And events took place in my life, even from that point to where we are today that have fundamentally changed me even more and have evolved me even more, and given me great enlightenment and a greater understanding of how to do this, of how to do this life, career.

Tony Alvarez  24:47
You know, the balance with family, love, friendship, all of those things, and you get lost in it. And that’s the sad thing people get lost in it because they think success is something monetary or that there is a destination and there really isn’t a destination, you know, it’s just a journey along the way.

Tony Alvarez  25:05
And you find out more about yourself and you find out more about people and how you want to live as you go on.

Pete Newsome  25:12
I’ve had a couple of life experiences over the past few months, I’ll just say with my family and it’s caused some new thoughts that I’ve had about what is the goal of life if you will?

Pete Newsome  25:28
And it’s very personal individual, the question to answer, of course, but what I started to realize is that the goal is to peak as late as you possibly can, with whatever it is you’re doing, that should be the goal.

Pete Newsome  25:42
And when I look forward, to my life, a life without something to look forward to a life without something new to learn, and acquire, it would be depressing.

Pete Newsome  25:55
And so that’s the way I’ve been thinking about it a lot over the past few months is that I just want to experience and learn as much as I can until I can’t anymore, and that moment, hopefully, coincides with the last breath I take. Until then I’m gonna keep trying to improve and grow.

Tony Alvarez  26:14
Rich, you just tell me Rich used to say, okay, so you get this manager position? And then what’s next? Next, after that it’s a director, then a VP, then C level, you know, then what?

Tony Alvarez  26:28
When does it end? When’s it enough? When’s it over?

Rich Simmons  26:31
Yeah, there’s actually a really good book, Pete, his name is Shawn Achor, it’s called The Happiness Advantage. And really what Tony’s referring to is something that comes from that book.

Rich Simmons  26:41
And what he talks about is that we have a tendency, highly driven, highly motivated, people have a tendency to push their happiness beyond the cognitive horizon, meaning, I’ll be happy as soon as I get to this stage, when you get to that stage, and what’s next, I get good grades, I want better grades, I get a good job, I want a better job.

Rich Simmons  27:02
I got one title, I want the next title, right? And so we’re always chasing this happiness instead of just truly understanding that happiness happens along that entire journey. It’s not a destination, it is part of the overall experience. And, you know, you said something about the experience, right?

Rich Simmons  27:20
I mean, to me, that’s what life’s about. It’s about having these experiences, good and bad along the way, but appreciating the entire thing. You know, we have a tendency to believe that we are the center of the universe.

Rich Simmons  27:32
But the reality is, I mean, I’m looking out my window now and I see, you know, 150-200 cars driving down the road in front of me here, if tomorrow I’m gone, those 150-200 cars are still going to be going up and down that road, right?

Rich Simmons  27:46
And one guy is going to be mad because somebody else cut them off in traffic. The reality is that we’re here for a very short period of time, and we’re important to ourselves, and to those that are close to us.

Rich Simmons  27:56
But to everybody else, we’re really insignificant in the overall universe.

Pete Newsome  28:00
100% true. Yeah, for sure. Well, so apply that if you can, just you know, Tony, you said if you’re a manager, you want to go to a director, if you’re a director, you want to be VP.

Pete Newsome  28:12
So as leaders in business with the team, I want to be able to touch on this, because I know it’s something you guys take so seriously the concept of team and culture at work. And I suspect you would take that seriously without RLF, It’s just who you are.

Pete Newsome  28:30
You guys take a lot of pride in what you do. And you expect a lot from those around you as a person who staffed your teams before I can say that definitively. It’s not always easy, because it’s rarely easy, in fact, because you have very high expectations as you should.

Pete Newsome  28:49
So how do you? What message would you give to your employees who are ambitious, yet need to be patient at the same time? How do you handle those conversations?

Rich Simmons  29:02
Do you want to take that one? Tony?

Tony Alvarez  29:03
Well, you know, one of the things, there’s nothing wrong with ambition. And there’s nothing wrong with wanting to move up. What you need to balance that with is What is your reason? What are your causes for that? What are you really driving it?

Tony Alvarez  29:19
Because if the goal is to move up in title for title sake, I want to be a CIO one day, you know, or, you know, have that ambitions for ambition sake, I need to show what a success I am. And this is my way of expressing that. Well, you know, I would argue that those might not be the best reasons in the world.

Tony Alvarez  29:38
A good healthy ambition is fantastic. And moving up in position so that you’re able to do more and influence more is fantastic. You just need to make sure that your priorities and your reasoning for all that are in line. And you know, you said it in the question, Pete It’s really all about patience.

Tony Alvarez  29:55
One thing that I can tell you in my story and my background is I never really, you know, hunted for that big promotion, I never really asked for that, hey, you know, when can I be a VP?

Tony Alvarez  30:11
And I’m not saying that that’s a bad thing to do.

Tony Alvarez  30:14
But you got to let your work and you’ve got to let your self, your humanity, your desire to do what’s best and what’s right for the people around you and the company and, you know the customers that you service if you serve customers, you got to do what’s right.

Tony Alvarez  30:32
And as long as you have those priorities straight, and realize that you’re working for your family, and you’re working, you know, there’s a means to an end, it’ll come. It’s a byproduct, you know, you just got to put in the work and you got to put in the effort, ambitions, great, the desire to move up is great.

Tony Alvarez  30:52
You just got to make sure that your priorities and the reasons behind them are in tune and in line with who you are at your core self.

Rich Simmons  31:00
Yeah, and I think for me, you know, I’m a pretty big Daniel Pink fan from the standpoint of, you know, autonomy, mastery, and purpose, right. And I focus a lot on that purpose aspect when I’m looking at anyone coming in the door.

Rich Simmons  31:15
I can teach them the mastery skills, I can give them the autonomy to get their work done. I can even help them define their purpose. But what I really focus on more than anything is what is their purpose?

Rich Simmons  31:26
What is my purpose, and for me, you know, I go back for myself, you know, I grew up in a military family and my father, anytime we would go camping, he always made sure that we left the campground better than what we found it.

Rich Simmons  31:39
Now I’ve translated that into myself into my leadership style, that my entire goal is to leave every place I go into better than what I found it. And when I think about the concept of team, right, it really is helping people understand what their purpose is. I love the diversity in people, I love the diversity in cultures, and I love diversity.

Rich Simmons  32:04
And in almost every aspect, I don’t like diversity, and as in values, I look at people from what are their core values.

Rich Simmons  32:12
If you can find people that have like tight values, who are just genuinely want to be better want to make things better than the diversity of their backgrounds, their culture, their race, color, religion, all the things that go along with it actually make a much, much better product because they’re all in it for the same reason.

Rich Simmons  32:32
But they’re bringing their own flavor to that.

Rich Simmons  32:35
And for me, when you can do that, when you can empower a group of people who are otherwise diverse, to do a very, you know, unique things together, the bond that they get, and the things that they will accomplish, you can’t even begin to put a measurement tool next to it, it’s really unfathomable what they’ll be able to do.

Tony Alvarez  32:55
You know, Pete, I’ll tell you to, to piggyback on that. And to circle back around to the original question.

Tony Alvarez  33:03
I’ve personally witnessed individuals, very, very talented, very innovative, innovative individuals, you know, perform at a certain level, but then somewhere along the way, their priorities changed to how can I move up and get that promotion?

Tony Alvarez  33:20
How can I get that big bonus or that big raise, or do I want to be at this sea-level position. And I’ve seen people completely sabotage their careers unknowingly only because the reason behind it may have been ego, who knows what it is, but the reason they weren’t performing was solely for that moves upward.

Tony Alvarez  33:42
And it’s got to mean more than that.

Pete Newsome  33:45
How do you as an IT, leader in an IT organization, the conversations that I know you guys have with your team have to surprise a lot of people because they’re conversations that they’re not used to being involved in?

Pete Newsome  34:01
That was activated to be true? How much time would you do you think you spend investing in the person versus investing in, not just a person but the people versus investing in the project that needs to be done the next upgrade the next implementation? How would you say your time is balanced?

Rich Simmons  34:23
I’ll say I spent as much time as it takes because there’s no better investment than in people. Right?

Rich Simmons  34:29
And I’ll take that a step further. When I talk about when people ask me what are the greatest things I’ve accomplished in my career. And Pete, you know, a little bit about my background, but when it comes to technology, I’ve done some really cool stuff. I mean, I’ve done some really cool stuff.

Rich Simmons  34:44
And in those companies that I did that really cool stuff. It’s been replaced 5,6,7 times. The people that I did that work with have gone on to other companies.

Rich Simmons  34:54
There’s no resemblance to anything that I’ve done anywhere over my career that is still valid today, in my mind, the memories are there.

Rich Simmons  35:03
But when I really think about the things that I’ve done that I consider to be my greatest accomplishments, it is creating good teams of people, great teams of people. And, you know, there’s a phrase that says something to the neighborhood of relationships transcend transactions, right?

Rich Simmons  35:21
And there’s a reason that you and I are sitting here today having this conversation to your point, we’ve known each other since the day you started Four Corners, right?

Pete Newsome  35:27
Yes.

Rich Simmons  35:29
And that was that’s not by happenstance that we’re still together. It’s because those relationships have transcended transactions.

Rich Simmons  35:35
And to me, at the end of the day, it always comes down to how are you going to connect with somebody to help them grow beyond where they are, even if that means growing outside of your organization? I think we always look at turnover and organization as a bad thing, right?

Rich Simmons  35:53
Leaders are greater than the percentage of turnover they have or don’t have.

Rich Simmons  35:57
And to me, why would you not want to help someone be successful, even if it meant that opportunity for them was outside of your organization?

Pete Newsome  36:07
No, it’s so true. And I think creating the environment where people believe that, is the challenge.

Pete Newsome  36:16
And I’ll tell you, just by happenstance, I had a conversation with our internal team last week, where I said, hey, look, the great resignation has been going on for the past year, we’ve seen what I consider to be some pretty unnatural acts with hiring, because of the very tight labor market.

Pete Newsome  36:38
And all these companies have been spiking, and they’re hiring. And now that’s starting to, we’re starting to see that going the opposite direction. That’s a different conversation.

Pete Newsome  36:46
But we’ve seen more turnover over the past year just across the board than we would see under normal circumstances. And I said to my team, if you don’t want to be part of our organization, internally, by all means, I get it.

Pete Newsome  37:01
And I would be hypocritical to say otherwise, I’ve resigned from every job, but the one I’m in now, so but so come and talk to us, maybe we can help. Maybe we can’t, right? If you want to say hey, look, I really want to go save whales, we don’t have that option available on our staff.

Pete Newsome  37:18
But if it’s something reasonable, if it’s a work situation, if it’s something that we can impact we want to try, but at the very least, if we can’t, we’d like to help you find your next job, right?

Pete Newsome  37:29
We’re not going to be, to leave, to have that environment would be incredibly powerful. And I can tell you, I don’t believe I’ve been able to create that because that is much easier said than done for an employee, specifically for a newer employee, younger professional, to take that leap of faith and say, hey, Rich, Hey, Tony.

Pete Newsome  37:54
Or in my case, hey, Pete, listen, I appreciate the opportunity. But this isn’t really where I want to be. What advice do you have, I can tell you that I would love it, I don’t want those conversations.

Pete Newsome  38:06
But I would love the fact that they could happen if they happened. And it sounds like you guys may have found some keys to that.

Tony Alvarez  38:15
My first exposure was to Rich and it was shocking. For me, I’ve never seen anything like that, where, you know, we had a performer, and that performer had an opportunity elsewhere.

Tony Alvarez  38:29
And Rich understood it was a viable, really good opportunity. And Rich went all out to assist the person in exiting the company and moving on to their future endeavor. And I’ve never seen anything like that. I’m like, well, wait, you’re not gonna fight for this guy?

Tony Alvarez  38:46
You’re not gonna, you know? And he’s like, No, why would I do that this is gonna be better for him better for his family better for his life. And that was absolutely shocking for me.

Tony Alvarez  38:57
Because here I am later on in my career, and I’ve never been exposed to leadership like that. And, you know, you talked about leadership, Pete, what is the definition? That’s leadership.

Tony Alvarez  39:08
You know, and it went far beyond the realm of staying in the company, it went outside of the company, it went to a level where you’re leading somebody in life.

Tony Alvarez  39:18
And that’s so much more meaningful than within the four walls, you know, and that was, you know, one of my first exposures to that, and it was a very surprising moment.

Tony Alvarez  39:27
And now, you know, I carry more of that mentality and more of that attitude.

Tony Alvarez  39:32
And I try to understand the hopes and dreams and families of all the people that I get to lead you know, and I think that’s equally as important is to make sure that you take the time to really know who you’re spending all day with, because you got to think about it.

Tony Alvarez  39:50
We’re here we’re spending this time with these individuals. Well, who are they really, and what are their dreams? What’s the movie background of their story?

Tony Alvarez  39:58
You know, what book can they write you know, and when you start looking at things in that way, you make much more of an investment in human beings, thus becoming a better leader than you ever have been. And you don’t even know you’re doing it.

Rich Simmons  40:12
Well, and the other side of that coin is as well, you know, to Tony’s point, and I won’t get into specific numbers, but what I’ll say is in an organization where we’ve had, I’ll say, lower double digit turnover as an organization, voluntary turnover, because of the great resignation.

Rich Simmons  40:28
Inside of IT, we are in the very low single digits in the market.

Rich Simmons  40:32
And you know, Pete, that turnover in the IT market right now is astronomical. So when people know that you care, and they know that you’re here for them, it’s hard for them to be swayed by little promises, or little things of the unknown, when they know what they have here.

Rich Simmons  40:49
And it’s not it’s it goes far beyond the organization. It’s what they have in each other what they have in their leadership and what they have from the organization as well.

Pete Newsome  40:59
And you guys have created that environment, you work at it, it doesn’t happen by accident, that we know. Do you hire? Do you screen for that in your hiring process? Do you believe that you can tell how likely someone is to buy in, you know when you’re interviewing?

Pete Newsome  41:20
So forget the skill set, forget the experience, you know, they can do the job? We don’t know. But basically, we because we know that we can be surprised by that. But everything looks good, except you’re not sure whether they’re gonna fit into the culture, or do you think you’ve figured out how to screen for that?

Rich Simmons  41:40
Well, I don’t know if you can ever get it exact. Right? I don’t think there’s, no matrix out there. It’s as if they answered this question this way. And that question this way, then they’re, you know, 70% more likely to stick, I think it really comes down to that.

Rich Simmons  41:53
Who is that person, and for me, honestly, when somebody comes in to meet with me, I appreciate a good resume. But the reality is, I throw it to the side, because one, we can all hire somebody that creates a resume for us, right? But at the end of the day, I expect that my team is going to make sure their tech skills are where they are.

Rich Simmons  42:14
And if they’re not, I can hire those tech skills from just about any vendor out there that I need. What I can’t hire is someone who cares. And so I spend a lot more time on just getting to know who they are, and their thought process behind things. And I’ll tell you, frankly, from a candidate’s perspective, they don’t always open up because they’ve heard it all before. Right?

Rich Simmons  42:37
Who does it in an interview, sell their culture and things like that? So they’re hearing the same things from us. When once they’re in the door, if we believe we have a fit, once they’re in the door, not only I guess what I’m saying is our actions need our words, right? And I think that’s where we probably differentiate ourselves.

Rich Simmons  42:57
And through my career, that’s where I’ve probably differentiated myself as a leader than probably most other organizations.

Tony Alvarez  43:04
I love you know, I don’t want to say we’ve gotten this down to a science, Pete. I don’t think anybody will ever have it down to a science, one thing I can tell you is I enjoy a good interview.

Tony Alvarez  43:14
And the reason I do is that you know, usually, nowadays, interviews happen in a panel format. And I love being part of that because there’ll be a rapid fire of skill questions.

Tony Alvarez  43:25
Hey, have you done this? Have you done that? And one of my favorite things to do in an interview is completely shifting gears and just getting into the conversation.

Tony Alvarez  43:35
Stop asking questions, and I love getting into a conversation with the candidate. And you know, we hired a QA manager not too long ago, and there were the rapid fire skill questions. And you can see him perked up and a little tight. And he’s, you know, he’s hitting these questions.

Tony Alvarez  43:50
And then it came to me and I shifted gears completely. And I just got into a conversation about what his interests are, what he likes to do, who cares about work, talk about work right now, I don’t even care about it right now, either.

Tony Alvarez  44:01
And we and you just see that candidate, they just relax, and the guard comes down, and you start getting a little more, you know, a little more insight and a little more information. By the time they’re in Pete, the one thing I can tell you is these people somehow Rich and I have been able to bring the real caring type.

Tony Alvarez  44:22
Because these people care so much I swear Rich, and I have to go out of our way to say, hey, stop caring so much. Go home, you don’t need to be here. You know you don’t need to work that extra weekend.

Tony Alvarez  44:34
And these people will do it naturally.

Tony Alvarez  44:36
And there’s something to be said about just that human quality, getting away from that real corporate look and feel and jargon. And just being a regular person. Somebody wants to go all out for that regular person, that person that they feel cares about them and cares about their family and their well being.

Tony Alvarez  44:57
And you know, Rich and I have seen results and just being plain old regular people.

Pete Newsome  45:03
It’s unique guys, I think you know that it’s rare and the people who get to be on your team are very fortunate as a result of that. And so it’s really a pleasure to hear you guys talk about just that caring aspect of it, because it’s not lip service. It’s not.

Pete Newsome  45:23
I hear the word culture a lot. These days didn’t have for years. And half the time, I don’t even know what it means. Most of the time I don’t even know what it means, right? What is it, but I think the tone you guys set and the example that you said is where your culture comes from.

Pete Newsome  45:43
And it’s, it’s really neat to hear inaction. And while RLF has been a big part of your lives, that’s not where everything ends. And I know you guys are looking to kind of take this message forward.

Pete Newsome  46:00
So talk a little bit about that we would have, how do you apply? How are you applying what you’ve learned? to others? So you can pay it forward? Perhaps beyond your current staff?

Rich Simmons  46:11
That’s, that’s a great question. Because the reality is, is that when you look at a program like RLF, to your point, it’s not inexpensive. I’ll argue that the value that you get out of it is far more than you invest in it.

Rich Simmons  46:24
But it is an investment in people. And so they are very selective about who these companies are typically selective about who they send and things of that nature. And it’s kind of a shame because there’s not a single person, whether it’s inside the corporate walls or outside that could not benefit from this program. Right?

Rich Simmons  46:43
So Tony and I have kind of come up with our own rendition of it, it’s a skinny down version, it’s a corporate appropriate version, and it doesn’t focus so much on the emotional aspects of things.

Rich Simmons  46:55
But I gotta tell you that you know, we’ve created a program that we call Pathways For Life. And we have, we’re basically almost our last session of our first cohort for this year.

Rich Simmons  47:07
And it’s amazing the results that we’ve seen from this program, even though we’ve kind of skinny down some of the more direct emotional things, the speakers that we have coming in talking about Crucial Conversations, talking about emotional intelligence, talking about their life experiences, and things of that nature, the books, the programs, the bond that we’re seeing from that group of people is, again, second to none.

Rich Simmons  47:34
And when you have people that are coming to you saying, these are things that are changing my life, and not just changing my life, but they’re changing the lives of myself, my family, my friends, I’m taking these nuggets home, and I’m helping and you know, I had a crucial conversation with someone about these things.

Rich Simmons  47:53
And, you know, before I would have handled it like this, but after this, I’m handling it like this, and it was so productive. Like that’s when you know, like you’re doing something special, when people are really feeling that sort of connectivity, to the things that you’re providing them That to me is where leadership comes into place.

Rich Simmons  48:11
It is really providing people with the opportunity to be successful, successful can be figurative, but ultimately it boils down to how do I help this person achieve their goals? Whether it’s inside of here or outside? How do I make this place better than I found it?

Tony Alvarez  48:27
And really, and really, it’s trying to capture that spirit of what RLF is about that era of figuring out who you are as a human being and what it takes to get to that level and bottle it up and be able to say here, let me share this with you.

Tony Alvarez  48:45
And I really echo what Rich is saying, anybody, anybody and I don’t care what walk of life you come from, and you know what social status or anything that may be out there that categorizes people, I don’t care where you’re from, this is a benefit to everybody and everybody should be, should have an opportunity at this.

Tony Alvarez  49:08
And that’s pretty,  much what Rich and I want to do and just this one session, you know, this, this, this six months session that we’ve had with this group of people, if it all ended, Pete, if it all ended just now, I would feel fulfilled because already what we’ve been seeing out there and just the improvement in some of the people’s lives.

Tony Alvarez  49:28
I mean, you know, you know, what’s most meaningful to me, I’ll tell you really quick is you know, we did do a section on crucial conversations and how important it is to really approach that the right way and have the right self awareness to approach things.

Tony Alvarez  49:44
And somebody came back and she said, you know what, I got to thank you guys because it truly improved my relationship with my daughter.

Tony Alvarez  49:52
You know, we weren’t having a good one and now we’re going out together and things at home have improved.

Tony Alvarez  49:59
You know, It wasn’t a career conversation, it wasn’t her moving up or anything like that. But to hear how this program contributed to an improvement of someone’s own life was just huge.

Pete Newsome  50:11
Yeah, these things are tied together, right? You can’t separate them. And we can talk about work life balance all day long.

Pete Newsome  50:18
But if you’re, if your personal life is a mess, if your health is in jeopardy, if you’re, if you’re worried you’re struggling, discontent, whatever that might be, it is going to affect your job, it is going to affect your mood, and you can’t separate it.

Pete Newsome  50:37
But well, you can write, but you have to be very conscious of that. And you have to make a big effort.

Pete Newsome  50:42
And you have to understand where it’s coming from, and all of the things that you guys are talking about. You know, it’s so much easier said than done. And I don’t think most of us can arrive there on our own without some outside help.

Tony Alvarez  50:57
Right, It always takes help. And, you know, Pete, I look forward to you and other people that we’ve worked with, in the past, seeing this program, evolve and get formalized between Rich and myself, we’re really going to try to take it out to as many people and as many walks of life as possible.

Tony Alvarez  51:13
And see, you know, Rich, I talk about it all the time. And it’s corny.

Tony Alvarez  51:18
It’s very corny, but it is the reality that if we can, you know, contribute to society in a very, very positive way, and make a living all while doing that. Isn’t that the dream? I mean, isn’t that, you know, isn’t that what the journey is all about?

Tony Alvarez  51:35
So, look forward to you seeing this get formalized and start picking up momentum.

Pete Newsome  51:42
Who is it for? And I say that with a caveat. This is a little thing between Rich and me, that I asked him a few years ago, if someone we both know, should go to RLF? And he said no. And he had to give me a reason why.

Pete Newsome  51:54
So I don’t want to assume that anyone could benefit. So who’s it intended for who would get the most out of that?

Rich Simmons  52:01
I will tell you, Pete, the difference here is that this one really is geared towards anyone Tony said it from any walk of life, any educational background, any level of career, whether it’s beginning, entry, mid, or senior level career, so there’s something for everyone in this.

Pete Newsome  52:20
So pathways for life have you, is the trademark in progress yet? Is actually okay. So it should be if it’s not already, I’ll just say, and this isn’t, because you guys came on today.

Pete Newsome  52:32
In fact, I didn’t even know this until we got on today. But I’m genuinely excited to hear what you’re doing.

Pete Newsome  52:41
Because I know firsthand the impact that RLF had on you guys. So you know, at times, I’ve thought this is something I need to do. Because when you see someone go to, you know, take a class to have a new experience, and it lasts for a period of time.

Pete Newsome  52:59
This is persisting, this isn’t going away this is like, you know, it’s tattooed on you now, and it’s just part of who you are.

Pete Newsome  53:09
And so for you guys who have gotten so much out of it, to be able to package it up in a different way take what you’ve learned, there as well as your life experiences, which are diverse and rich and deep, to then give that the worlds gonna be a better place for it.

Pete Newsome  53:26
And that’s a pretty rare thing to be able to say in and of itself. So I’m happy for everyone who’s going to be exposed to this because their lives are gonna improve a lot. So really cool stuff.

Rich Simmons  53:40
I mean, honestly, I think it’s ours, that improves the most Pete, because again, when you’re impacting people at that level, I mean, there’s, again, being you know, being an employee yourself, it’s great that you can provide opportunity and career growth and, and financial pay for people to be successful.

Rich Simmons  53:57
And those are all very, very good things that are much needed. But when you get somebody that comes up to you and talks about how you’ve changed their life, because of a program that you’ve put together, it hits differently. It’s,  really a special feeling.

Tony Alvarez  54:12
You know, even speaking from a selfish perspective, it just feels good. It just feels good.

Tony Alvarez  54:20
And, you know, after RLF, you stumble on you fall at times, the difference is, how to pick yourself up, you know how to move forward, you know, and I think you exercise it, you keep it in practice, and then eventually it’s just muscle memory and it’s ingrained and you move forward.

Tony Alvarez  54:41
But to Rich’s point, as we go on this journey and put this program together that we have, um, I’m learning more and more every day from the individuals that we get to talk to.

Tony Alvarez  54:53
I get emotional, I get choked up, and we try to not get too deep into the emotional part of things but it’s so funny how it happens all by itself. It just happens naturally.

Tony Alvarez  55:06
And you cannot help but get pulled right into it. And it’s a special feeling. It’s a really, really amazing thing to watch and experience.

Pete Newsome  55:14
I’m so happy about all this. I really am.

Pete Newsome  55:16
This is so cool, guys. And I think that’s a perfect way to end because I don’t think we can get better than where we are right now with this. But the last question I want to ask is, where can someone find out more information are you not ready there yet?

Pete Newsome  55:30
Because whatever you have, we’re gonna put it in our show notes for sure.

Rich Simmons  55:33
We’re not quite ready for that yet. We will put some addendums together for you, shortly.

Pete Newsome  55:38
Perfect.

Pete Newsome  55:38
Well stay tuned and we’ll be sure to promote it when you guys are ready. So Rich, Tony, thank you so much for investing your time in this today. I personally appreciate it professionally. I’m honored to have you guys on as well. So just thank you.

Rich Simmons  55:52
It’s been a long time in the making Pete we thank you for everything as well. Thank you for this friendship over the years.

Pete Newsome  55:57
Awesome.

Pete Newsome  55:58
All right. Well, guys, if you’ve been listening thus far, we can’t thank you enough. As always, I love feedback. I want to hear topics, questions, and suggestions for other shows. Email us anytime at hirecalling@4cornerresources.com. Thank you and have a great rest of your day.